1999-07-14 0003 .5
July 14, 1999 (Regular Night Meeting)
(Page 1)
A regular meeting of the Board of Supervisors of Albemarle County, Virginia, was held on July 14,
1999, at 7:00 p.m., in the Auditorium, County Office Building, Mclntire Road, Charlottesville, Virginia.
PRESENT; Mr. David P. Bowerman, Ms. Charlotte Y. Humphris, Mr. Forrest R. Marshall, Jr., Mr.
Charles S. Martin, Mr. Walter F. Perkins and Ms. Sally H. Thomas.
ABSENT: None.
OFFICERS PRESENT: County Executive, Robert W. Tucker, Jr., Assistant County Attorney,
Greg Kamptner, and Chief of Community Development, David Benish.
Agenda Item No. 1. The meeting was called to order at 7:05 p.m., by the Chairman, Mr. Martin.
Agenda Item No. 2. Pledge of Allegiance.
Agenda Item No. 3. Moment of Silence.
Agenda Item No. 4. Other Matters Not Listed on the Agenda from the Public.
Ms. Ruth Wadlington, Co-President of the League of Women Voters for Charlottesville and
Albemarle County, called attention to a letter in the Board members' packets. It is a joint communication
from the League of Women Voters and the Rivanna River Basin Roundtable regarding the need for the
entire community to be involved in the water decisions facing this community. The decisions about the
community's needs will affect citizens for many years to come, and she urged the Supervisors to appoint a
regional water oversight commission that will be broader in scope than the Rivanna Water and Sewer
Authority's defined mission. The League hopes the Board of Supervisors will discuss this matter and act
on it.
No one else came forward to speak.
Ms. Thomas wondered if the Supervisors could give Ms. Wadlington a response as to when they
might deal with the requests from the League. Although the Board of Supervisors usually does not
respond immediately to items from the public, the Supervisors are in receipt of the letter, and they have
heard Ms. Wadlington's comments. Ms. Thomas added that she thinks the League would like for the
Board to take some action particularly before Rivanna's next meeting with the consultants.
Mr. Martin suggested that perhaps Mr. Tucker could include this item with the agenda for next
week's meeting. Mr. Bowerman asked if the public hearing regarding this issue is scheduled for
September. Mr. Tucker responded that the public hearing has not been scheduled as yet, and he thinks
this could be one of the things Ms. Wadlington is addressing. A public hearing will probably be held in
September. Mr. Bowerman concurred with Ms. Thomas' comments that the League needs a response.
Mr. Tucker pointed out that the Supervisors have discussed this matter before, and he has also
talked about it with Rivanna representatives. There is also a plan to have a joint meeting with City Council
and Rivanna on this issue. However, the oversight committee to which Ms. Wadlington referred, has not
been discussed before tonight. He suggested that the Supervisors may want to talk about this item, and
the August day meeting is a possibility for such a discussion. He does not know City Council's
perspective on the matter at this time.
Mr. Martin agreed that it could be included as an agenda item for the August day meeting. Mr.
Bowerman noted that he will not be present for the August Board of Supervisor's day meeting, but he will
discuss the situation with Ms. Thomas before that time.
Agenda Item No. 5. Consent Agenda. Ms. Humphris offered a motion, seconded by Ms.
Thomas, to approve Items 5.1 through 5.5 on the consent agenda. Roll was called and the motion carried
by the following recorded vote:
AYES: Mr. Bowerman, Ms. Humphris, Mr. Marshall, Mr. Martin, Mr. Perkins and Ms. Thomas.
NAYS: None.
Item No. 5.1. White Oaks (Crozet) "Watch for Children" Sign.
The residents of White Oaks subdivision request the Virginia Department of Transportation to
install a "Watch For Children" sign on Caitlin Drive (Route 1232). This request requires a resolution of
support from the Board of Supervisors to the Virginia Department of Transportation.
On March 3, 1999, the Board of Supervisors endorsed new guidelines for the installation of
"Watch for Children" signs. Staff is using these new guidelines to review this request.
1. "Watch for Children" signs shall only be considered on secondary roads. The
July 14, 1999 (Regular Night Meeting)
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residents have requested the sign to be located on Caitlin Drive (Route 1232) - a
secondary road in the Crozet area of the County. This will alert all vehicles to be cautious
as they travel on Caitlin Drive.
The request must come from a Homeowner's Association where applicable. Please
find attached the letter of request from the one-half of the homeowners in White Oaks
Subdivision. This subdivision does not have a homeowner's associa-tion at this point. It is
not fully developed at this time. Staff is confident that this request represents the
community's position.
There must be a child activity attraction nearby for the si.qn to be considered. White
Oaks subdivision is located on Caitlin DriVe. Caitlin Drive is a cul-de-sac road. The
children in the subdivision gather at the end of the cul-de-sac to play.
The installation of the si.qn shall not conflict with any existing traffic control
devices. The proposed location of the sign will not Conflict With any existing traffic control
devices.
Staff recommends the Board of Supervisors endorse the attached resolution supporting a "Watch
for Children" sign in the White Oaks Subdivision on Caitlin Drive.
By the above shown vote, the Board adopted the following Resolution:
RESOLUTION
WHEREAS, the residents of the White Oaks Subdivision are concerned about traffic in their
neighborhood and the potential hazard it creates for the numerous children that play on
the subdivision; and
WHEREAS, the residents believe that a "Watch for Children" sign would help alleviate some the
concerns;
NOW, THEREFORE, BE IT RESOLVED that the Albemarle County Board of Supervisors hereby
supports the community's requests for VDOT to install the necessary "Watch for Children"
signs on Caitlin Drive (Route 1232).
Item No. 5.2. Appropriation: Virginia Commission of the Arts Grant, $100.00 (Form #99002).
The Virginia Commission of the Arts awarded Albemarle County a Local Government Challenge
Grant for $5,000 for FY 1999/2000. The grant is to be distributed evenly between the Piedmont Council of
the Arts and the Virginia Discovery Museum.
During the budget process, the Challenge Grant was projected to be $4,900 and was included in
the original appropriation to Piedmont Council for the Arts and the Virginia Discovery Museum. This
additional appropriation reflects the increase in the amount of the grant awarded, which is an additional
$50 to each organization.
Staff recommends the Board of Supervisors approve Appropriation #99002 in the amount of
$100.00 as detailed on the attached form.
By the above shown vote, the Board adopted the following Resolution of Appropriation:
FISCAL YEAR: 1999/2000
NUMBER: 99002
FUND: GENERAL
PURPOSE OF APPROPRIATION: ADDITIONAL LOCAL MATCH FOR VIRGINIA COMMISSION
OF THE ARTS LOCAL GOVERNMENT CHALLENGE GRANT.
EXPENDITURE
CODE DESCRIPTION AMOUNT
1 1000 79000 560401
1 1000 79000 560410
VA DISCOVERY MUSEUM $ 50.00
PIEDMONT COUNCIL OF THE ARTS 50.00
TOTAL $100.00
REVENUE
CODE DESCRIPTION AMOUNT
2 1000 24000 240418
VA COMMISSION OF THE ARTS
TOTAL
$100.00
$100.00
July 14, 1999 (Regular Night Meeting)
(Page 3)
Item No. 5.3. Resolution to accept Highlands, Phase 1C, into the State Secondary System of
Highways.
A memorandum was received from the Department of Engineering and Public Works indicating
that the roads in Highlands, Phase 1C are complete and ready for VDoT acceptance.
By the above shown vote, the Board adopted the following resolution:
The Board of County Supervisors of Albemarle County, Virginia, in regular meeting on the 14th day
of July, 1999, adopted the following resolution:
RESOLUTION
WHEREAS, the streets in Highlands, Phase 'lC described on the attached Additions
Form SR-5(A) dated June 28, '1999, fully incorporated herein by reference, are shown on plats
recorded in the Clerk's Office of the Circuit Court of Albemarle County, Virginia; and
WHEREAS, the Resident Engineer for the Virginia Department of Transportation has
advised the Board that the streets meet the requirements established by the Subdivision Street
Requirements of the Virginia Department of Transportation.
NOW, THEREFORE, BE IT RESOLVED, that the Albemarle Board of County Supervisors
requests the Virginia Department of Transportation to add the roads in Highlands, Phase 1C as
described on the attached Additions Form SR-5(A) dated June 28, '1999, to the secondary system
of state highways, pursuant to 33.1-229, Code of Virginia, and the Department's Subdivision
Street Requirements; and
BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that the Board guarantees a clear and unrestricted right-of-
way, as described, and any necessary easements for cuts, fills and drainage as described on the
recorded plats; and
FURTHER RESOLVED that a certified copy of this resolution be forwarded to the
Resident Engineer for the Virginia Department of Transportation.
The roads described on Additions Form SR-5(A) are:
1)
Clover Ridge Place from the intersection of Route 1241, Mechums River Road,
to the cul-de-sac at Station 15+92, as shown on plat recorded 3/14/97 in the
office the Clerk of Circuit Court of Albemarle County in Deed Book 1598, pages
418-421; Deed Book 1776, pages 344-357; and Deed Book 1779, pages 500-
507, with a 50-foot right-of-way width, for a length of 0.11 mile.
2)
Clover Rid,qe Court from the intersection of Clover Ridge Place, to the cul-de-
sac at Station 11+45, as shown on plat recorded 3/14/97 in the office the Clerk of
Circuit Court of Albemarle County in Deed Book 1598, pages 418-421; Deed
Book 1776, pages 344-357; and Deed Book 1779, pages 500-507, with a 50-foot
right-of-way width, for a length of 0.03 mile.
Total Mileage - 0.14 mile.
Item No. 5.4. Year 2000 Legislative Proposals to submit to VACo (deferred from July 7, 1999).
As a continuation of our discussion last Wednesday, staff is providing you with some additional
information regarding potential VACO legislative submittals. Specifically, the "Five for Five" initiative being
considered by VACO and others. This proposal would return five percent of the net Virginia individual
income taxes collected in each city and county in Virginia to the locality, and in return, each locality would
reduce its real estate taxes by five percent. In the attachment from VACO, Albemarle's net new revenue
under this proposal would be $2.336 million based on the 1996 income tax collected and the 1998 real
property taxes.
Albemarle County potential VACO legislative submittals:
Request legislation to provide Counties with enabling language to operate farmers' markets.
There has been local interest in exploring the possibility of operating a farmers' market in
Albemarle, but a recent Attorney General opinion ruled that counties do not have the
expressed legislative authority to do so.
Request enabling legislation to provide for a scenic protection and tourist enhancement
overlay district. As the County pursues options to protect the visual quality of land as an
aesthetic and economic resource, this legislation would provide localities with a method to
ensure full consideration of visual resources and scenic areas when the County or State
July 14, 1999 (Regular Night Meeting)
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makes land use decisions in designated areas.
Request legislation to preclude VDOT from erecting towers in the right of way without
permission from the locality. Currently, VDOT allows cellular companies to erect towers on
their right of way with rental fees accruing to the state. VDOT also uses these towers for their
own equipment, such as cameras and road monitoring equipment.
· GROWTH MANAGEMENT:
Provide high-growth jurisdictions with management tools for coping with residential
development. Such enabling legislation includes 1) the authority to impose school and road
impact fees 2) the authority to adopt adequate public facilities ordinances and 3) provide
statewide funding for a Purchase of Development Rights program for localities who establish
and locally fund such a program
Request legislation from the state to broaden the revenue sources available to localities
such as a local option sales tax, a reduction in the number of sales tax exemptions and a
local option income tax.
(NEW) Increase state revenues to localities for such joint services as jails, juvenile
detention facilities, schools, etc.
Staff recommends that we submit those items listed above including the "Five for Five" Plan to
VACO for inclusion in their legislative proposals.
By the above shown vote, the Board supported the list of items recommended by staff
(set out above) to submit to VACo for inclusion in their legislative proposal.
Item No. 5.5. Resolution in support of relationship with Provincia of Prato.
By the above shown vote, the Board adopted the following Resolution:
RESOLUTION
WHEREAS,
after arriving in Virginia in 1773, Filippo Mazzei, who was born in Poggio a
Caiano, met Thomas Jefferson in Albemarle County, Virginia, and they became
friends; and
WHEREAS,
their rapport endured throughout their lives, with productive exchanges of ideas,
visions and practical support; and
WHEREAS,
this friendship was the basis for a community-to-community relationship that
began during the United States' bicentennial in 1976, between our community
and the City of Prato and the Town of Poggio a Caiano, with officials traveling to
and from Charlottesville and Albemarle County, Virginia, to visit and to extend
hands of fellowship; and
WHEREAS,
this association blossomed into a summer-time exchange program for three
years, with high school students from each community spending a month in each
others' homes in 1983, 1985, and 1987; and
WHEREAS,
although the student exchange did not continue past that time, the impact on the
American students is still evident as many of them have studied the Italian
language, obtained jobs in Italy and made frequent trips to visit their Italian
"families" and friends; and
WHEREAS,
in 1998, a group of citizens from Poggio a Caiano re-instituted the relationship
with a visit to Charlottesville and Albemarle County, Virginia, and repeated the
visit in June, 1999; and
WHEREAS,
return visits have been made by individuals from Charlottesville and Albemarle
County to Poggio a Caiano and Tuscany; and
WHEREAS,
the value of a continuing relationship is evident as the visits enable the growth of
friendships, delightful experiences, and the possibility of economic, cultural, and
educational ventures; and
WHEREAS,
although Albemarle County was paired with the City of Prato in 1976, it now
seems more fitting for Albemarle County, which is suburban and rural, to be
paired with the Provincia of Prato, which also includes both urban and rural
settings;
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July 14, 1999 (Regular Night Meeting)
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NOW, THEREFORE, BE IT KNOWN, that the County of Albemarle regards Prato City, Poggio a
Caiano and the Provincia of Prato as communities with whom we have both an
historical and a recent relationship; and
FURTHERMORE, we present this landscape portrait as a reminder of our long-lasting relationship
and a promise of many friendships and adventures yet to come.
Agenda Item No. 6. SP-99-012. Rising Sun Baptist Church (Si_tin #39). PUBLIC HEARING
on a request to allow dining area addition to existing church in accord w/Sec 10.2.2.35 of the Zoning Ord
which allows for church building & adjunct cemetery. TM99, P86, contains 2.022 acres. Located on W sd
of Old Lynchburg Rd (Rt 631) approx 0.25 mis N of intersect of Old Lynchburg Rd (Rt 631) & Plank Rd (Rt
712). Znd RA. (This property is not located in a designated growth area.) Samuel Miller Dist (Advertised
in the DaiLy Progress on June 28 and July 5, 1999.)
Mr. Benish said SP-99-12 is a request to allow for an 840 square foot addition to an existing
church, which is located on the west side of Old Lynchburg Road, approximately 0.25 miles north of the
intersection of Routes 631 (Old Lynchburg Road) and Route 712 (Plank Road). The addition will be used
as a dining area and is a one-story addition to an historic church. He noted that the church has been
surveyed as an historic structure since the late 19th Century. It is staffs opinion that the proposed
addition will not be a substantial detriment to the adjacent property owners and is consistent with
Albemarle County's Comprehensive Plan and Zoning Ordinance. The proposal will not intensify the
current use or activity on site. Staff recommends approval with the three conditions as outlined in the staff
report.
Mr. Benish said the Planning Commission, at its meeting on June 1, 1999, unanimously
recommended approval of SP-99-12 subject to the three conditions recommended by staff.
Ms. Katherine Burton, Clerk of the Rising Sun Baptist Church, explained that as of today she had
to apply for a conditional permit from the Health Department. She stated that all of the work was
inspected, and a permit was issued. However, the Church then received a phone call followed by a letter
indicating that the capacity of the Church's septic system was inadequate, and there was a discrepancy in
some of the figures. She met with Health Department representatives and applied for a conditional permit.
This conditional permit will allow the building of the addition to proceed, but any time membership or
activities increase, then the septic system will have to be upgraded.
With no further comments from the applicant, Mr. Martin opened the public hearing. Since no one
came forward to speak, the public hearing was closed.
Ms. Thomas noted that church representatives did not realize they had to go through the special
use permit process, and she again suggested that there should be a way of informing small entities that
they have to go through this process ahead of time. She then moved approval of SP-99-12 subject to the
three conditions recommended by the Planning Commission. Ms. Humphris seconded the motion.
Roll was called, and the motion carried by the following recorded vote:
AYES: Mr. Bowerman, Ms. Humphris, Mr. Marshall, Mr. Martin, Mr. Perkins and Ms. Thomas.
NAYS: None.
(The conditions of approval are set out below:)
1. Health Department approval;
This special use permit is for an approximately 840 square foot rear dining hall for the
existing congregation. If an addition to the sanctuary is proposed in the future, then this
special use permit must be amended, and a site plan or site plan waiver and entrance
improvements will be required; and
Day care use and other non-church activities shall be prohibited unless approved through
a special use permit amendment.
Agenda Item No. 7. SP-99-19. Wachovia (Signs #94&98). PUBLIC HEARING on a request to
allow relocation of angled parking & one-way traffic circulation in accord w/Secs 23.2.2.5, 4.12.6.5, &
4.12.6.2 of the Zoning Ord which allows for angled parking & one-way traffic. TM61, P122 contains 1.831
acs. Located on Rt 29 N near intersect of Rio Rd. Znd CO. (The Comp Plan designates this property as
Regional Service in Urban Area 2.) Rio Dist. (Advertised in the Daily Progress on June 28 and July 5,
1999.)
Mr. Benish said that Wachovia Bank, located on the east side of Route 29 in front of and adjacent
to Fashion Square Mall, is petitioning the Board of Supervisors to issue a special use permit to move an
existing ATM located in the north wall of the bank to a freestanding ATM kiosk. The existing kiosk is being
relocated away from the building to accommodate the relocation of the existing angled parking next to the
July 14, 1999 (Regular Night Meeting)
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building so customers won't have to walk across a lane of traffic to get to the bank. Staff has
recommended approval with a condition limiting the number of drive-through windows to four traditional
windows and one ATM window.
Mr. Benish said the Planning Commission, at its meeting on June 1, 1999, unanimously
recommended approval of SP-99-19 subject to the condition recommended by staff.
Mr. Bowerman asked if the kiosk is covered. Mr. Benish answered affirmatively.
There were no further questions from Board members, so Mr. Martin asked if the applicant would
like to speak.
Mr. James Boyd, an architect with Heyward, Boyd and Anderson, P. C., represented Wachovia
Bank. The exhibits speak for themselves, but he would be happy to answer any questions.
Mr. Martin opened the public hearing for SP-99-19, since there were no questions from Board
members for Mr. Boyd.
Mr. Jason Howard, a City resident, said this is not specific to Wachovia, but it is a general
statement about drive-through windows. He noted that several communities in the United States are
banning drive-through windows because they encourage pollution and smog. This Board should be aware
that continuing drive-through windows as a method of convenience is encouraging people to stay inside
their cars and keep their cars running, which encourages problems in the terms of air pollution.
Mr. Bowerman noted that he is familiar with this bank, and he feels the plan is an improvement
over the existing situation in terms of the access with the one way circulation. He then moved for
approval of SP-99-19 subject to the condition recommended by the Planning Commission. Ms. Humphris
seconded the motion.
Roll was called, and the motion carried by the following recorded vote:
AYES: Mr. Bowerman, Ms. Humphris, Mr. Marshall, Mr. Martin, Mr. Perkins and Ms. Thomas.
NAYS: None.
(The condition of approval is set out below:)
1. Drive-through windows will be limited to five (5) (four traditional and one ATM window).
Agenda Item No. 8. SP-99-20. Free Union Country School (Sign #86). PUBLIC HEARING on
a request to amend existing SUP to increase enrollment at priv school in accord w/Sec 10.2.2.5 of the
Zoning Ord which allows for private schools in the RA Dist. TM29, P15D contains approx 4.76 acs.
Located at 4220 Free Union Rd (Rt 601) approx 1/4 mis S of intersect of Buck Mountain Rd (Rts 601 &
665). Znd RA. (This property is not located in a designated growth area.) White Hall Dist. (Advertised in
the Daily Progress on June 28 and July 5, 1999.)
Mr. Benish said SP-99-20 is a request from Free Union Country School to expand enrollment from
the current limit of 60 persons (55 students and five staff members) as approved under the previous
existing special use permit to a total of 90 persons at its existing location. The school is located at 4220
Free Union Road, approximately 1/4 mile south of the intersection of Routes 601 and 665. School officials
are also asking for an extension of the approval terms for the permit to five years and to allow for fund
raising and planning prior to the construction of any new school facilities. Staff has evaluated the
consistency of this request with the Comprehensive Plan and Zoning Ordinance and recommends
approval with a number of conditions, some of which have been revised by the Planning Commission. He
noted that up to 90 students and faculty members have been recommended, as well as a sequence for
various improvements for turn lanes and meeting parking provisions. The recommendation also provides
for the extension of the approval period for the permit and for the subsequent submittal of the site plan.
There were no questions from Board members for Mr. Benish. Mr. Martin inquired if the applicant
would like to speak to this request.
Ms. Martha McClay, the Business Manager at Free Union Country School, stated that the school's
Board of Trustees has worked this past year extensively on long range plans. Instead of piecemeal
growth, school officials are trying to have a long range plan indicating the maximum of people who will
ever be on that site. School representatives have made efforts to comply with regulations in the different
departments of the County, the Health Department and VDoT.
Ms. Thomas asked if the school's well is adequate. Ms. McClay replied that the current well is
being monitored by the DEQ, because there are minute amounts of a gasoline additive in the well. She
explained that there is a treatment building with various ways of treating the water, and the DEQ has also
drilled a test well on the site which is being monitored. If this well proves to be free of the contaminants,
then the DEQ will drill a new well for the school. DEQ representatives have indicated that the current well
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July 14, '1999 (Regular blight Meeting)
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could clear up on its own, but they will leave the treatment facilities in place until that time and will continue
to monitor the well.
Ms. Thomas inquired whether or not the quantiiy of water is adequate. Ms. McClay answered that
the quantity of water is adequate, although school officials are watching the septic field area. She pointed
out that two additional lines will be dug for the field to provide for the expansion.
Mr. Marshall noted that if the school has an adequate supply during this dry summer, he doubts
there will be a problem in the future. He talked to a well driller who commented that he is digging lots of
wells this summer, because people's wells have gone dry.
Ms. McClay responded that there have been no water problems this summer at the school, even
though some new trees have been planted, and they are being watered. She noted, though, that there are
not many students in the school over the summer months.
Mr. Perkins asked about the source of the contamination in the well. Ms. McClay replied that she
is unsure whether it is Maupin's service area or Huckstep's that is causing the prOblem. She said test
drilling was done at the post office which is between the two sites, but she is unsure whether or not the
source of contamination was ever determined. It is also uncertain whether the levels in the water are
harmful to children, but they could not take the chance, so a treatment system was installed.
Mr. Bowerman wondered how the contamination was detected. Ms. McClay responded that she
sends samples regularly to the Health Department, but she is uncertain whether the contamination was
found in these samples or if someone from the DEQ found it. She does not know if the DEQ monitored
the well because contamination was found somewhere else in the area, or because it was a school, but
the DEQ has been monitoring the well for a couple of years.
Mr. Bowerman asked how much separation will be between the existing well and the new test
well. Ms. McClay answered that there is quite a bit of distance between the two. She explained that the
old well is behind the school, and the new test well is in front of the school near the road on an uphill
grade. Therefore, it was felt the test well would not be near an area where contaminants would be
draining.
Mr. Martin inquired if any members of the public would like to speak to SP-99-20 concerning the
Free Union Country School. No one came forward, so Mr. Martin closed the public hearing.
At this time, Mr. Perkins offered a motion, seconded by Mr. Marshall, to approve SP-99-20
subject to the conditions recommended by the Planning Commission.
Roll was called, and the motion carried by the following recorded vote:
AYES: Mr. Bowerman, Ms. Humphris, Mr. Marshall, Mr. Martin, Mr. Perkins and Ms. Thomas.
NAYS: None.
(The conditions of approval are set out below:)
If licensure is not required by the State Department of Welfare, this approval shall
constitute a waiver of Section 5.1.6(a) of the Zoning Ordinance, set forth below:
ao
No such use shall operate without any required licensure by the Virginia
Department of Welfare as a childcare center. It shall be the responsibility of the
ownedoperator to transmit to the zoning administrator a copy of the original
license and all renewals thereafter and to notify the zoning administrator of any
license expiration, suspension, or revocation within three (3) days of such event.
Failure to do so shall be deemed willful noncompliance with the provisions of this
ordinance;
Periodic inspection of the premises shall be made by the Albemarle County fire
official at his discretion. Failure to promptly admit the fire official for such
inspection shall be deemed willful noncompliance with the provisions of this
ordinance; and
These provision are supplementary and nothing stated herein shall be deemed to
preclude application of the requirements of the Virginia Department of Welfare,
Virginia Department of Health, Virginia State Fire Marshal, or any other local,
state or federal agency.
Construction of additional improvements at the site shall require amendment of the
approved site plan;
Maximum number of students and staff shall not exceed ninety (90) persons or such
lesser number as may be approved by the State Department of Health and/or the Thomas
July 14, 1999 (Regular Night Meeting)
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Jefferson Health District, or as necessary in order to comply with the requirements of
Section 32.0 of the Zoning Ordinance;
Within six (6) months of any increase in its present authorized number of students and
staff of sixty (60) persons, the applicant shall install the turn and taper lane required by
VDOT on Free Union Road;
Prior to any increase in its present authorized number of students and staff of
sixty (60) persons, the applicant shall meet all parking requirements set forth in Section
4.12.6.6.2 of the Zoning Ordinance; and
Upon an increase in the number of students and staff to more than sixty (60) persons, this
special use permit shall be considered to have been exercised. Under approval of this
special use permit, construction of any additional structures and/or improvements at Free
Union Country School shall be commenced within with a period of five (5) years from the
date of approval of this permit by the Board of Supervisors.
Agenda Item No. 9. CPA-97-05. Brass, Inc. (Willou.~hbv). PUBLIC HEARING on a request to
amend the Comp Plan for property consisting of approx 53.89 acs located in Urban Neighborhood 4.
TM76M(1), Ps2A&2B. Property E of Fifth Street Extended (St Rt 631) & N of 1-64. The proposal seeks to
change the designation of the area from Industrial Service to Regional Service, to support the eventual
rezoning from LI, Light Industrial, to C-1, Commercial, or PD-SC, Planned Development Shopping Center.
Scottsville Dist.
Ms. Susan Thomas, Senior Planner, gave a brief introduction to the public hearing. There are
four alternatives in front of the Board of Supervisors relative to CPA-97-05, Brass, Inc., (Willoughby). This
property lies east of Fifth Street Extended and north of Interstate 64. The first alternative to change the
Comprehensive Plan gained no action. There is also the applicant's proposal for regional serVice, the
staffs recommendation for mixed use community service, as well as the Planning Commission's
recommendation which is referred to as the Rooker/Rieley compromise proposal. This proposal is also a
community service recommendation. At the Planning Commission's work session held last week, the
applicant indicated that he was willing to reduce the size of the big box anchor store to agree with the
160,000 square foot upward limit recommended by the Planning Commission.
There were no questions from Board members for Ms. Thomas.
Mr. Marshall asked Steve Blaine, who was representing the applicant, if the 160,000 square feet
was the absolute minimum amount of space the retailer would require.
Mr. Blaine answered that the minimum square footage for this type of retail use, which is a super
center discount department store, ranges from 110,000 to 210,000 square feet. He said larger stores can
be seen in all forms of retail and not just discount stores. He noted that some Bloomingdale stores are
being built in excess of 200,000. He said pet stores can be seen now in excess of 30,000 square feet. In
the larger retail discount arena, the large big box format is how discounters are able to offer lower prices.
There are formulas for operating these centers, and nationwide or regional retailers typically operate most
of their stores across the country in the same manner. The size is part of the formula for the discount in
this type of store.
Mr. Marshall inquired again if 160,000 is the minimum square footage the retailers are willing to
accept. Mr. Blaine answered that there have been retailers interested in as much as 210,000 square feet
at this location for a super center. He is referring to a discount department store with the full discount
array of products, a grocery store and a pharmacy under one roof. The 160,000 square feet proposal
comes from the recommendations of the Planning Commission. The applicant felt, as a compromise after
the Planning Commission meeting, that he was prepared to go forward with the proposal at this level
based upon discussions with other retailers, brokers and people in the retail industry.
There were no further questions for Mr. Blaine.
Mr. Martin commented that usually the applicant is allowed a ten minute time frame to make a
presentation to the Board of Supervisors, as well as to the public, before the public hearing is opened.
The public hearing is then opened, and at the end of the hearing, the applicant is allowed five minutes for
rebuttal. He talked to Mr. Blaine earlier, and Mr. Blaine wants to forego the presentation in the beginning
so there will be more of an opportunity for Board members to listen to the public. However, Mr. Blaine has
requested five minutes at the end of the hearing to respond to comments.
Mr. Martin said there is a three minute time limit for all members of the public to speak. He
pointed out that the purpose of this three minute limit is so everybody will have a chance to speak, and the
Board members will be alert, since they want to hear as much from the public as possible. He also asked
that speakers not repeat comments that have already been made by others, but a simple reference to
something someone else has already said would be helpful. Speakers can ask for a show of hands at any
time, but applause or boos are not allowed. There are approximately 30 people who have signed up to
speak, although others will be given an opportunity to make comments if they wish, even if they did not
July 14, 1999 (Regular Night Meeting)
(Page 9)
000323
sign the sheet. He will call five names and have those five people come to the front of the room. When
those five people have spoken, he will call five additional people, and those people can come forward at
that time. He then opened the public hearing and called the names of the first five speakers.
Mr. Jim Lark said he lives in the Buck Mountain area of Albemarle County, and he serves as
Secretary of the Jefferson Area Libertarians. On behalf of his Libertarian colleagues, he wishes to
address this issue by placing it in a more general context. Libertarians believe in the right of property
owners to develop their property as they please provided they don't violate the rights of their neighbors.
This is a fundamental principle for a free society, and Libertarians believe that government should neither
subsidize nor discourage development in the County. To the extent that developers of this project
demand goods and services that are currently produced by the County government, Mr. Lark stated that
there is nothing inappropriate in asking those who demand these goods and services to pay the marginal
cost of their provision. It is also proper that the developers be required to respect the property rights of
their neighbors. However, recognition of these points does not imply any right for government to abridge
the rights of a property owner, but that is what this Board is being asked to do by many. He noted that
some people in the community have expressed concern about sprawl, and when these concerns are valid,
the means used to address the concerns should respect the rights of the projects' property owners rather
than using government to infringe upon those rights. He mentioned that it is sometimes asserted that the
development of a big box store will lead to unpleasant consequences with respect to traffic and the
environment. He is a Professor of Systems Engineering at the University of Virginia, and he occasionally
deals with these types of issues. From what he can ascertain, it is by no means clear that the unpleasant
consequences asserted will actually come to pass. In summation, he urged the Board to respect the
rights of property owners in the County and allow the developers of the project to build a big box store if
that is their choice. He thanked the Board members for their courtesy and their consideration. He has
been involved with these issues for quite a while, and he would be happy to provide his services, time
permitting, on a pro bono basis.
Mr. Gary Westmoreland said lives in the Schuyler area. The City of Charlottesville and Albemarle
County should neither subsidize nor discourage the development of big box stores. Those citizens who
express their concern about sprawl should use means of respect for the rights of property owners rather
than using government to abridge those rights. He thanked the Board for the opportunity to speak to this
issue.
Mr. Tim San Jule remarked that he lives in the City of Charlottesville. He asked the Board
members to listen carefully to the facts they will hear tonight. He mentioned a family minister who told him
something as a child which has remained with him ever since. The minister stated that the world would be
better off if the people in it tried to be better, and people would be better, if they stopped trying so hard to
be better off. When everyone tries too hard to be better off, then no one is better off, but when everyone
tries hard to become better, then everyone is better off. Mr. San Jule said as a child he was taught that
the profit motive is good, and he believes it to be so. He was also taught that this is one of the reasons
this nation is so great, and he believes that to be so, and he teaches this to children now. He was taught
that greed is bad, and he truly believes it, and he teaches that to children now. No matter how hard
people try to gloss it over, greed is not good, and it is his opinion that a 160,000 square foot building on a
hillside near a stream is greedy. He is not the only one who feels that way. He emphasized that profit and
greed are not the same thing, and quality and convenience are not the same thing, and very often people
have to choose. People can choose to make a fair profit or they can choose to make a killing.
Mr. Bowerman inquired if Mr. San Jule is a teacher or if he is talking about his own children. Mr.
San Jule replied that he is referring to both.
Ms. Kay Slaughter, representing the Southern Environmental Law Center, said the Center
supports the Planning Commission's recommendations and the RookedRieley proposal as proceeding in
the right direction. The Center believes that the limitation on the size of a single store and the
development, as well as having mixed uses, are improvements over the original proposal. However, the
Center believes that the mixed use requirement should be explicitly stated. The Board of Supervisors has
consistently been for sustainable growth, and she asked the Supervisors to consider again whether it is in
the interest of the County and the City to have another big box development. She also asked them to look
at other cities across the country to see that these have not been sustainable over time. The Center
appreciates the elements of the site which were spelled out in the Planning Commission's proposal, and
she thinks they address some sustainable aspects such as stormwater detention, on site mitigation, the
greenbelt area and a vegetative buffer, as well as consideration for tree preservation for an energy
efficient building. She added that the Supervisors need to keep looking at transportation needs for this
site, even with mixed uses. She encouraged the Supervisors to consider how transit can be used in this
area.
Mr. Jim Hogan, a resident of Scottesville, supported the Willoughby project. The opportunities in
terms of shopping in the southern part of the County are not very good, and residents have to go to Route
29 which is a traffic hazard and difficult to traverse. This is an opportunity for the whole southern area,
and he does not see it as a competitive threat. He sees it as a challenge to any retailer, and he supports it
wholeheartedly.
Ms. Rebekeh Gerni, a high school student at the Living Education Center for Ecology and the
Arts, said she lives and attends school in the historic downtown district. Today she is speaking on behalf
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July 14, 1999 (Regular Night Meeting)
(Page 10)
of her school, family and peers, and they are opposed to any big box development on Fifth Street,
Extended. She has listened to the many points made during these meetings. However, the one point of
view that has not been expressed enough and which is very important is that of the next generation, and
they are the people for which government officials should be planning. Many of her peers shop at Wal-
Mart on Route 29 North. Yet, they do not want a second one that is closer to their homes or is closer to
the downtown area. A big box store will bring in more cars, more roads, more pollution and would ruin
Charlottesville's unique community. She asked, for the sake of the next generation, that the Supervisors
please oppose the big box development.
Mr. Travis Critzer stated that he is a resident and a business owner in the Scottsville area. It is a
45 to 50 minutes drive from his driveway to the closest discount store. If this store is built, it will save
approximately 20 minutes into Route 29 area traffic just for everyday needs for his children. He is very
much in favor of this project, and he asked the Supervisors to consider approving it.
Mr. Gerhard S. Schoenthal stated that he lives in Charlottesville, and he supports the
constitutional rights of individuals or businesses to use their property as they see fit until such time that
those individuals or businesses trespass on their neighbors' properties. Trespassing is a matter that
should be adjudicated on a case by case basis by the courts. In general, he is opposed to zoning.
Therefore, in a community that zones, he would support any rezoning efforts or petitions to allow
individuals or businesses to use their property as they see fit.
Mr. Alexis Zeigler, a resident of 912 Woodfolk Drive in the Ridge Street neighborhood in
Charlottesville, commented that he has been working with a coalition of environmental groups to oppose
the big box development on Fifth Street, Extended. His coalition has been circulating a petition which
states: "We the undersigned support economic development in Albemarle and Charlottesville that serves
the needs of the community, supports local business and generates good jobs. We oppose superstore
development on Fifth Street, Extended because we feel it may undermine existing businesses, destroy
jobs and spur greater commercial sprawl to the south of the City." He said 1,560 people have signed the
petition, and he will provide a copy of it to the Board. He noted that two columns were provided on the
petition for people to check, and it appears that approximately half the signatures belong to County
residents. There were two Planning Commission hearings, and at the first one, there were three to one
people against the superstore. At the second public hearing there were four to one against it. At the last
work session, when Mr. Rooker summed up the opposition to the big box store, he said it was primarily
based on aesthetic reasons because people felt the big box would be ugly. Mr. Zeigler then asked
everybody who was opposed to the big box store to stand (approximately 50 people stood). He next
asked everybody who was opposed to the big box store primarily because of aesthetic reasons to sit
down (a couple of people sat down). He thinks a lot of provisions that have been put in the Planning
Commission proposal have been aimed at painting the big box green. People are concerned about
sprawl, out of control growth and roads. He does not think a pretty, green box is going to help the
situation. Developers do not ultimately pay the cost of growth. He mentioned counties all over the country
that have had really strong growth from Las Vegas to Disney World in Florida. It can be seen that growth
brings growth. He added that the cities he has seen from New York's environmental impact statements
predict that if 200,000 square feet are built, it will generate 300,000 growth related items. Ultimately the
government is going to pay for the roads and schools and all of the multiplying growth.
Ms. Katie Hobbs, a resident of Albemarle County, wondered how a determination such as the one
before this Board tonight can be made without more information on the area's water availability. The
consultant's report is not completed which seems to her to be critical to land use resolutions. After this
report of supply and demand, decisions need to be made on the County's sustainability. Some questions
need to be answered such as how much growth does the County want or need and whether or not a large
water supply will fuel unmanageable growth. Even more critical, if the area is to grow with foresight, is the
channeling of growth in Albemarle County to where it logically should go. She asked how this can be
done without a report showing where the ground water is located and how much is available. Perhaps
this development, and others similar, should be temporarily set aside until answers to the primary
questions are found as far as where the area's water supply is located as well as how much is left or
available for growth, without compromising the quality of life of the existing population.
Ms. Nancy Hurrelbrinck remarked that she lives at 1020 St. Clair Avenue, and she opposes
changing the zoning for the Fifth Street site to allow for construction of a big box store because doing so
can only encourage suburban sprawl development south of Charlottesville. She believes the site should
be rezoned to create a mix of houses, offices and retail establishments. She has heard strong evidence
supporting the contention that the store Brass wants to build is a super Wal-Mart, and she strongly
encouraged the Supervisors to read two books published last year before they allow another Wal-Mart to
be built in this area. The titles are, How Wal-Mart is Destroying America and What You Can Do About it
by Bill Quinn, a Texas journalist, and In Sam We Trust, The Untold Story of Sam Walton and How Wal-
Mart is Devouring America by Bob Ortego, who writes for the Wall Street Journal. She noted that these
authors show that Wal-Mart has a track record of moving into small towns and causing the closure of 75
percent of locally owned stores, particularly clothing, hardware, drug, variety, appliance, bicycle and
outdoor power equipment stores. Wal-Mart's policy is to establish itself in a community and then create a
regional superstore nearby and close its other stores. There are 333 empty Wal-Marts in this country.
The company owns only 17 percent of its stores, and the other 83 percent are leased, preventing other
businesses from occupying stores once they have been abandoned. It is highly likely the Wal-Mart on
Route 29 North will close if a superstore is built on Fifth Street. She understands that the people who live
July ]4, ]999 (Regular Night Meeting)
(Page 11)
south of Charlottesville need convenient shopping, and many of them would like to see a discount
superstore built. She wondered, though, if they were presented with the big picture, would they want to
see more of the landscape eaten up by sprawl development. She next quoted from an editorial which
appeared in last Sunday's New York Times. Some like to argue that with sprawl the free market has given
Americans exactly what their spending decisions say they want. And yet, many of us, including myself
should say some part of most of us, deplore the landscape and traffic that our own dollars and desires
have bought. Some would have you believe that the real me, the only one that finally matters is the
shopping me, the consumer. The deploring me should be dismissed as a sentimentalist or elitist or a
hypocrite. That has been the general view on sprawl, but it overlooks the complicated truth about modern
life. Although we are consumers, we are not only consumers, but parents, neighbors and citizens, too.
The sort of world we would bring into being with our dollars does not necessarily match the world we
would vote for with our hearts, and one of the things politics is good for is bringing those worlds into a
more pleasing alignment." She hopes the Supervisors will vote to create a mixed use development on Fifth
Street. She noted that she e-mailed the Supervisors an article from today's New York Times about
sprawl. She pointed out that it is a long article, but she asked the Supervisors to please read it, because it
is excellent.
Mr. Stephen Bach, a Charlottesville resident, said he opposed the big box development on Fifth
Street. There are hundreds, and perhaps thousands, of communities around the nation that have allowed
developments of this kind on an incremental basis, and they end up being places that aren't very attractive
in which to live. It is well known that the Charlottesville/Albemarle area is widely considered a very
attractive place in which to live, and it has been written up many times in many publications. People move
here, and the area is growing, but it needs to grow in a careful way. A proposal by a private interest to
make a change for something of this nature is not a proposal in the public interest. It is a proposal for a
private interest, and it is a very narrow interest. He is suspicious of it, and for the area to grow and remain
attractive, it needs to be done in a planned, careful deliberate way. The wealth generated from a big box
store disappears out of this community. However, with smaller businesses, the money stays in the area,
and that is what people want. He also asked the Board members if they think people want job loss and
smaller businesses closing. The answer is clear, and the record of what is happening in other
communities that have said yes to Wal-Mart is also clear.
Mr. Brandon Smith stated that he lives in Charlottesville, and he is opposed to big box
development. He then asked the people to stand who are opposed to big box development, even if they
are not necessarily opposed to the new shopping center (the majority of the persons present stood). He
emphasized that people can be opposed to big box development, although they may not be opposed to
economic development. He has a copy of the Thomas Jefferson Sustainability Council's Accords, and he
pointed out that a lot of people in this room were involved in this effort. Mr. Smith said he thinks it is
important to have a round table discussion as opposed to the hierarchy. The Accords represent the
efforts of this whole region, and the Sustainability Accords are referring to responsible growth. He finds
nothing in the applicant's application for a variance that address any of these concerns. He thinks it is
ironic that in addition to Mr. Bowerman's and Ms. Thomas' name on the Council membership, James
Murray's name is also shown. The automobile age is over, and he wondered when the people can start to
get out of it. Some people said the 20th century ended in 1990, and he suggested that this analogy be
followed so people could start moving in that direction. The Chamber of Commerce in Warrenton opposed
Wal-Mart, and he thinks the Board of Supervisors should research the reasons why. He noted that
included in the audience are people who walk or ride bicycles and don't own cars because they don't want
to contribute to pollution. One of his major concerns is that he will be killed or maimed on the highways,
and he thinks this should be a consideration when people are asked to drive endless miles for shopping.
Mr. Jason Halbert, of 208 Little Graves Street, remarked that he firmly believes the statement that
"there are no rights, but there are only responsibilities". The rights that people have conveyed upon
themselves are very important, and he stands for those as well, but he believes that owning land has to do
with responsibility first and foremost. Yesterday he spoke before the Virginia Legislative subcommittee
which is studying the influx of chip mills, which is an industrial forest product facility that ships whole trees.
One-inch flakes are made from them, and then they are sent to pulp and paper mills throughout the
country. These mills are coming into Virginia at an alarming rate and consuming forests. The analogy of
the chip mill to Wal-Mart or any other large retailer is very good, and it works in the sense that it is an
export or a drain on a community and not a bonus. He is not opposed to this property owner using his
property in a responsible manner. He thinks the property should be developed because it is infill, and it
will support what the Comprehensive Plan has set out in the growth areas. He is opposed to putting a
giant box on the property, and he is also opposed to the compromise plan. He thinks the Supervisors
should adoPt the no action alternative or the original community service proposal with a lot of mixed uses.
It does not prevent the landowner from making a lot of money on this site. He lives in the City, but he
commutes to his garden in Azalea Park by bicycle or truck, so he goes through this corridor almost every
day. He agreed that this area needs a place for people to shop who live on the south side of the County,
but putting in a store such as this is going to cause a massive influx of cars and congestion from 1-64, and
it will cause a lot of unhappy people in that area. If the proposal is approved, County officials will basically
be saying that sprawl or growth will not be stopped on this side of the County, but instead it will be
encouraged. He stated, though, that the Board can vote for the property owner and against sprawl. He
does not think the Rieley/Rooker compromise will help much, and he encouraged the Supervisors to make
the right decision.
July 14, 1999 (Regular Night Meeting)
(Page 12)
Ms. Ruth Wadlington, Co-President of the League of Women Voters of Charlottesville and
Albemarle County, read a statement urging the Board of Supervisors to recall the Sustainability Accords of
the Thomas Jefferson Sustainability Council and recommending the establishment of a village center.
(See statement to the Albemarle County Board of Supervisors from the League of Women Voters dated
July 14, 1999 relating to CPA-97-05, Brass, Inc.)
Ms. Lauren Cooper, a resident of Ridge Street, told the Supervisors that their predecessors on
this Board did something very wise over the past 20 years. They limited development of this kind to two
areas of town -- the northern section which is Route 29 North and the eastern area, which is Route 250
East. They left the southern and western sections relatively free of this type of development, which was a
fair, reasonable and intelligent way to go about development. It is a beautiful region with plenty of
shopping for those who want it, and it also has plenty of beauty and open space for others who want that.
In the Board's action tonight, the Supervisors will be deciding whether to change this pattern of
development or not. They will be making a very drastic decision, and she noted that there is a very simple
thought to consider. She said where big boxes go, Northern Virginia follows, and this is a simple, well
documented fact. Any type of mega store, even if it is limited to 165,000 square feet, generates traffic and
brings in additional growth, shopping centers, fast food restaurants, drive through banks, muffler shops
and gas stations, such as seen in Northern Virginia. She asked the Board members to seriously consider
the recommendation of the County's own staff who are people trained in making these kinds of decisions
and who have done the research. They have said that the big box store should not be built, and it will
keep three sections of this community from resembling northern Virginia.
Mr. James Clark, a resident of 1130 Oak Hill Drive, commented that he lives in Albemarle County,
south of 1-64 on Route 631. He does not refer to the store as the big box. He calls it convenient because
the people from the south side of Charlottesville, as well as the east and west sides, can shop there
without coming into Charlottesville. He stated that now there is a big distribution center built by Jefferson
National Bank which is much larger than the proposed store. He feels the store should be built for the
people living in the southern part of the County. However, the Supervisors are the managers of the
County, and they should do what they think is best and not what the people of Charlottesville want them to
do.
Mr. William Preston stated that Mr. Murray and other attorneys know the difference between land
ownership and land use. This difference has existed for over 1,000 years, and no one who owns land in
any subdivision or anywhere else has a deed without numerous restrictions. The Board of Supervisors
has the power tonight to restrict the property in such a way that not only will Mr. Murray ultimately benefit,
but the residents will also benefit. To say land use is the same as land ownership is not true, and it is a
fusion that should not be allowed to occur. He remarked that in this regard, there are other
considerations. He then read Article 11 of the Virginia State Constitution, and he asked the Supervisors to
keep it in mind when they are making their decision.
Ms. Babette Thorpe read a statement on behalf of the Piedmont Environmental Council relating to
CPA-97-05 and delivered to the Albemarle County Board of Supervisors on July 14, 1999. The statement
indicated that the PEC believes it would be a mistake to designate the entire property for intensive
commercial use, and suggested designating the property for even less commercial square footage and
more residential development than would be required under the staff proposal or the RookedRieley
alternative. She also noted in the statement that setting clear standards now can shorten the
development process later.
Mr. Norman Bell announced that as of July 15, 1999, he will be a resident of 751 Mountainwood
Road in Albemarle County. Although he agreed with those who would like to see more shopping places
along the Fifth Street Extended corridor, he has serious concerns about this particular project. Since this
project is not yet in the design stage, but rather in the Comprehensive Plan Amendment stage, he will
focus on aspects relating to the Comprehensive Plan. His primary concern is that this project is being
presented as an infill development, which normally means making efficient use of existing infrastructure.
Yet, it is unclear if such a project will actually get built. The Planning CommiSsion's alternative community
service proposal could very well result in a well-designed project. However, if only what is required is built
rather that what is encouraged, and a reasonable limit on the size of individual buildings is not
implemented, that plan comes close to describing many of the shopping centers along Route 29 North.
The main difference is that those shopping centers are generally better suited to their sites than the
applicant's current proposal. The Planning Commission tried to balance the overwhelming support shown
at its hearings by the public with the Planning staff's community service designation against the primary
goal of the applicant which is to secure an extremely large store on the property. In the process, the
residential component of the plan became an afterthought. The applicant has made a strong argument for
retail development on the site which has good access to transportation and is conveniently located in a
rapidly growing area. An even stronger argument could be made for residential development on the site.
In addition to having good access to transportation, it is convenient to both downtown Charlottesville and
UVa, has nice views, is secluded, has attractive woodlands and a stream with potential access to one of
the best urban trail systems in the country and could easily have access to nearby shopping. The local
housing market is very strong, and the South Pointe project has switched from residential to commercial.
Under the Planning Commission's plan, a large shopping center could be built and no residential units
would ever need to be constructed. He recalled that the goal of the 1996 Land Use Plan is to encourage
residential development in the existing growth areas, rather than the rural areas. Since this is a very large
and important parcel, it is very important to consider the impact of the proposed shopping center on
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July 14, 1999 (Regular Night Meeting) '
(Page 15)
potential residential development on the site. The qUestion becomes how large a store is necessary to
justify retail development on the site while not ruining the possibility that quality housing could also be built.
He referred to the applicant's statement that 65 percent of all retail sales are in super stores and currently
insists that a super store at this site must be at least 160,000 square feet in size. He noted that only one
store in Albemarle County is larger than that, and Lowe's certainly doesn't generate 65 percent of the
sales in the County. Either the size of the super store must be redefined or the conclusion can be reached
that Albemarle County does not really need a super store. He suggested that County officials make this
corridor a true alternative to Route 29 rather than an imitation of it.
Mr. Nathan VanHooser, a resident of Charlottesville City, informed Board members that he used
to shop at Wal-Mart, because he is not rich and he was certainly open to the idea of buying goods that
seemed to be at discount prices. However, he has decided not to shop at Wal-Mart for most of the
reasons already presented. The traffic associated with Wal-Mart is not a trivial matter, and he knows of no
one who enjoys traveling on Route 29 North. He noted that these kinds of stores tend to generate this
type of development around them. It is a fact the money does not circulate locally in these situations,
which does not affect him, because he is paying his money once. However, as managers of the County it
makes a great deal of difference. He said getting six percent on invested money sounds good, but it is not
good if right around the corner eight percent is possible. It is not a wise move to jump at the six percent
and miss the eight, but this is exactly what happens when money is spent at abig box store, and County
officials need to be wise to this fact. Wal-Mart has been extremely good at creating a public opinion and
image of itself that it has discount prices. Rigorous studies have shown, though, that prices everyone
tends to see are many times lower, but when the rest of the store is considered, there are lots of prices
that are not necessarily lower at all. By creating the Iow prices on products everyone knows about, a
fantastic public opinion is created for Wal-Mart that it has discount prices throughout the store, even if
there are only a few products involved. When he tries to list local heroes in the area, it turns out that all of
them are local business owners. Usually these people are not found in big box stores. They are found in
local businesses. He encouraged the Board to reject this proposal. The developer will come back with
another alternative when this one is rejected.
Mr. Greg Jackson, a resident of 613 Belmont Avenue, stated that he is an urban designer at an
architectural planning firm, and he is deeply concerned about the proposed big box development. The
scale, distribution of use and automobile orientation of the project will only continue to contribute to the
rampant sprawl type of development which has destroyed both natural and human environments. In his
office there are several projects, including one in Virginia, that are successfully integrating commercial
retail into wonderful mixed use vibrant human scale communities. There are much better ways to building
human environments, and many cities are doing so, and this area should be a leader in such efforts. He
feels the community service recommendations from the Planning staff is the correct direction to pursue.
He is a new citizen of this area, and he reminded the Board members of the area's assets. He believes
this is one of the most beautiful places on the planet, The excellent scale and character of the City with
the gorgeous surrounding landscape coupled with the legacy of Thomas Jefferson, Monticello and UVa
make this area a truly world class place. This is an honor, and everyone holds the responsibility to
maintain the quality of their region and heritage. As a homeowner, he is now invested in the future of this
region and deeply concerned about the direction in which the area is going. He chose to live in the
charming Charlottesville area, and not in the sprawling Fairfax County. He believes most people prefer
the region's scale and character, and do not advocate the sprawling of their homes. He also thinks most
everyone agrees as far as what causes sprawl.
As a Board member of the Belmont Neighborhood Association and Chairman of the Belmont
Comprehensive Plan, he is deeply concerned about the increase of cut through traffic the location of this
project will create. As with the Meadow Creek Parkway, drivers will be using City streets and
neighborhoods as routes from one County destination to another. Developments such as this one which
do not come with the proper infrastructure continue to degrade the existing communities. He is also a
member of the Charlottesville Parks and Recreation Advisory Board, although he speaks for himself when
he says he is concerned about the loss of open space and the degradation of the future Moore's Creek
Greenbelt. This trail along Moore's Creek will be a portion of a comprehensive trail system that will
circumvent the City. He mentioned his concern that there will be a missed opportunity at the bottom of the
parking lot retaining wall rather than an integrated walking, biking community pathway. As a member of
STAMP, he is disturbed about the inevitability of the "sprawl mart" to "sprawl mart" expressway through
the middle of the City. This is one of the reasons the highway has been labeled, "The Meadow Creek
Sprawlway." As a member of the group interested in the quality development of West Main Street, he is
concerned about the potential negative effect the big box development at such close proximity will have on
existing merchants of West Main Street and the mall, as well as the future vitality of downtown
development. He noted that presently there are several empty big boxes scattered around town. As a
consumer he desires a quality and a livable community in which to shop and do business. He needs to
shop, but he does not want to degrade the region. There may be a sincere need for retail south of the City
and a real need for discount retail. However, he does not think there is a reason to destroy this region to
obtain these goals, because he believes there can be a discount retail and a quality mixed use local
community. He mentioned the Woolworth's Store that was on the downtown mall, and he said it was a
wonderful example. The project can be designed and developed in a way that will work for all interests
involving quality and quantity. There is a win/win solution, and nothing less should be accepted.
Ms. Diane Dale remarked that she has resided with her family in the Mill Creek Subdivision in
Albemarle County for more than a decade. She added that it might be a convenience to have more retail
July 14, '1999 (Regular Night Meeting)
(Page 14)
near her neighborhood, but she would like to state her strong opposition to this propOsal. She requested
the Board of Supervisors to return this land use issue to the County's Planning staff where it can be further
considered within the comprehensive planning process. While the argument for this proposal may be
persuasive, the arguments against it are equally compelling. She referred to her concerns about the
impact of large scale regional destination shopping on the existing residential neighborhoods in the area
as well as the full impact of traffic. She asked if County officials have had the opportunity to explore the
full impact of traffic when the regional shoppers are considered who will come into this site and then
continue north along Route 29 for other discount shopping. A greater concern is the precedent set for
rezoning on Fifth Street as it extends southward into the County. She asked if the revenue calculated for
this project considered the land uses that will be precluded in this area in the County because of this
project, or is it the intention of County officials that another gateway to the community will be a cluttered
patchwork of strip retail. In the context of the Comprehensive Plan amendment for retail, no matter the
size of the store, the public interest would be better served through a comprehensive evaluation of the
County's long range planning needs for a larger area at issue before considering a plan amendment for a
site with such far reaching consequences. This proposal needs an answer to the overarching question of
how should Albemarle County grow.
In many communities across the country, this question is being asked after they are overburdened
by the myriad of problems resulting from the sprawl. She added that while the congestion of Atlanta might
not be an appropriate study for Albemarle County at this time, the area is not that far from the congestion,
overburdened services and fiscal problems of Fairfax County in time or in distance. It is imperative that
the County act to answer the question of growth while it still has the resources worth saving. The County
must grow wisely and with an intelligent view of its cultural and natural resources. The current phase for
this type of more sustainable growth is smart growth. Smart growth is not about no growth nor slow
growth. Smart growth is about finding more creative solutions to allow this community to maintain its
character while prospering economically. Smart growth means capturing the benefits of growth without
overwhelming the infrastructure and resources, and encouraging growth that is not only good for the
economy, but good for the community as well as the environment.
Relevant to this discussion tonight are the recent remarks of Hugh McCall, CEO of the Bank of
America to the International Council of Shopping Center Developers. Last March Mr. McCall surprised
many when he called on the shopping center developers to consider the impact they have had on
communities under conventional development and urged them toward smart growth practices. The
debate about the site in this community has gotten to be highly polarized as far as environmentalists
versus growth and provision of convenience issues. She noted that Mr. McCall made his fortune and that
of his industry through growth, and he has mainstreamed corporate America. He knows that
environmentally intelligent planning for growth makes good economic sense. She said developing and
implementing smart growth planning policies won't be easy, and those who advocate smart growth
principles must be humble. Advocates for smart growth principles firmly believe they must be willing as a
community to be innovative, creative and to explore alternatives to conventional planning and design
practices that resulted in sprawling development landscapes which have degraded the quality of our lives.
She thanked the Board in advance for its thoughtful consideration on this issue.
Mr. Kevin Cox stated that he is glad he is a City resident because it is convenient, and he can
walk most places he wants to go. He supports the proposal for two reasons. First, the location of it is
close to town, and it will be a quick ride on a City bus. There are a lot of people who need to save money,
but they have a hard time now getting to discount stores on Route 29 North. There are hundreds of
people in the Ridge Street neighborhood, Orangedale and other neighborhoods who would walk or take
the bus to this store. He added that it is good for alternative transportation, and he supports it for this
reason. Although, it is ironic that so many people opposed to the project are also supporters of alternative
transportation. He also supports this store because of its impact on the economy. He is rearing three
members of the next generation, and he is paying for their food and clothing. He supports businesses that
help him save money and that stimulate competition, which is what these stores do. He remarked that
"Mom and Pop" stores in this case are "Mom" Food Lion and "Pop" CVS, and they are not the stores on
the downtown mall. It is ironic that so many people in the audience showed their support for a smaller
shopping center on a smaller scale, when it is the type of thing that will compete with the stores on the
downtown mall. People can't buy many of the goods that are sold on the downtown mall at a large
discount retailer. He reiterated that there are lots of ironies relating to this project because there is the
opposition to this store by alternative transportation advocates, as well as the support for a smaller
shopping center on the site.
He then referred to the suggestion that there is a need for more mixed use development and that
this site should include a significant amount of residentially zoned land. He commented that people don't
want to live that way. This need is determined by market demand, and he does not think any of the Board
members would want to live in a shopping center. He does not want to live in one, and he does not think
most people would want to do so. He thinks the view about the need for more mixed uses and homes
over grocery stores is a new fantasy, and it is not realistic. He said people do not want to live in high
density development, because they want a yard and they want to live on a cul-de-sac. They do not want
to live in a shopping center. He hopes the Board will support the proposal.
Mr. Martin noted that everyone had spoken who signed the list, and he asked if there was anyone
else who would like to speak.
July 14, 1999 (Regular Night Meeting)
(Page 15)
Ms. Sharon Yackso said she lives in the City of Charlottesville now, but she grew up in Miami,
Florida, which was a small town at that time. However, when she goes back to that small town, she
cannot find it. The town's character cannot be found because of the concrete, strip malls and buildings. A
palm tree can be seen occasionally, but the character of the area is gone. She just came back from a trip
across the country where she visited a lot of small towns. There is a real demarcation between the towns
which have kept their character, and the towns that cannot be found. She said people have to drive
through huge traffic jams and huge strip malls to find some of these towns, if there is still a community
town there. She hates to see this happen to Charlottesville and the surrounding area. She emphasized
that month by month the community is being lost, and people are having to go through the maze of strip
malls and big roads to find what is left of Charlottesville.
Mr. Kuhlthau reported that he works with a new group by the name of Trade Local which supports
local businesses and culture in the Charlottesville and Albemarle area. On the surface the development of
the Fifth Street Extended superstore seems like a good idea, because it increases tax revenues and adds
jobs to the County. Unfortunately, under even the briefest critical analysis these claims fall apart. The tax
revenues will be needed to build infrastructure especially for traffic management and may lead to a
troublesome legal battle with the City because of its opposition to the project. The jobs added are the
wrong kinds of jobs, because the vast majority of them are part-time and no future jobs. Studies show that
for every one of the part-time jobs created, 1.5 permanent jobs are lost. Even if Albemarle County's
growth will reduce the super store's bankruptcy of local businesses, a vote for this compromise represents
a vote for capital flight. This is the third public hearing, and at each one a significant majority of the people
who attended have been opposed to the project. Yet, he fears this Board may not be listening to either its
own staff planners nor to the electorate. In short this super store represents unsustainable growth at its
worst, which is exactly the type of development this Board has said it opposes in general. The
Supervisors have the option tonight to prove specifically that they support smart growth instead.
Mr. Julie Jones stated that she has been a resident of the County her entire life, and she also just
graduated from the University of Virginia where she studied urban and environmental planning. Often in
her studies she looked to the County for its initiatives on sustainability, infill development and community
development as examples of smart growth. The proposed project does not measure up to the high
standards desired for this community, because a big box style of development is not community
development nor smart growth. Therefore, she opposes any rezoning that would allow for such a big box.
Mr. Colin Davis recalled that the first speaker expressed libertarian sentiments, which is a respect
for individual freedom under the condition that such actions don't harm neighbors. Within this framework it
is arguable that WaI-Mart's freedom harms its neighbors, so he encouraged everyone to think outside of
the big box and consider the ramifications of big box development. Over the course of his life, he has
lived in three small towns across America, and he has seen the towns before and after WaL-Mart arrived.
He has concluded that Wal-Mart has its own force of gravity because it sucks up jobs, creativity, clean air,
forests, ecology and rational urban design. However, it also gives back to the community. It gives back
sprawl by pulling the city toward citizens, and it gives erosion to the streams around it from all the parking
lots, as well as materials to build future landfills by tantalizing consumers with non-durable goods. He
encouraged the County officials to think carefully about this project and have the foresight to discourage
this type of development.
Mr. David Tezara said it would be a shame if the criminal Wal-Mart Corporation, that Ls being
convicted in several states with illegal price fixing, was allowed to have its way in Albemarle County. He
would hate to see this business come into the County and a few years later close and lay off all its
employees en masse. He added that if Thomas Jefferson could see what this corporation has done, he
would be appalled.
Ms. Melissa Luce remarked that she lives in Louisa County, but she had the same experience as
the speaker who grew up in Miami. She grew up in northern Los Angeles County and watched her
beautiful rural home destroyed by shopping malls, condominiums and office buildings. She thinks the
people who want convenient shopping should move to areas that have convenient shopping, and she
noted that property values are down in her old Los Angeles neighborhood because of over-development.
She moved to Central Virginia because of its rural feel and because Charlottesville seemed to be
intelligently planned, as well as being a beautiful and charming City. She agreed that economic
development is important to a lot of people and to Charlottesville, but she also thinks that economic
sustainability is important, as well as beauty, charm and intelligence. She asked the Supervisors to
consider the long term issues and the larger picture in deciding this issue, and she hopes they will decide
to look for more sustainable growth and not the quick economic fix.
No one else came forward to speak at this time. Mr. Martin announced that since there were no
more speakers, the applicant could make comments at this time.
Mr. Blaine stated that the Board was most generous with its time at the work session. He would
be happy to answer any questions.
At 8:40 p.m., Mr. Martin closed the public hearing.
Mr. Marshall noted that this project is planned for his district, so he would like to report how the
people in his district feel about it. The Marshalls moved to Albemarle County in 1740, and their original
July 14, 1999 (Regular Night Meeting)
(Page 16)
home still stands on Route 250 West. He stated that Mary Ann Elder has an antique shop there today.
This is a beautiful area, but it is entirely different from the way it was when he was a young man. He
remarked that growth is mentioned a lot, and people say this store is going to create growth. This store
will not create growth any more than roads or schools will be created before they are needed. He said
business follows growth; it does not create it. He sees a lot of yellow tags in this room supporting local
businesses. His wife is in the audience, and she must be as irritated as he is, because he owned and
operated a business locally in Charlottesville for almost 40 years. He was forced out of business by local
government because they refused to listen to the experts that he brought before them to explain what he
had to have to compete successfully. He contributed a whole lot to this community as far as services
were concerned, but because of this day and age, he could not compete with the size of the store he had
because the public demanded that he have more merchandise. He was denied this, so he closed his
business, and he now works for one of the big companies.
He then explained how such companies operate. They have a big box in these stores that is
controlled by a central office, which sets the time for the lights to come on and for the air conditioning to
start. If a person goes into the store to unload merchandise off a truck at 5:00 a.m., the store is
uncomfortably hot because the electricity doesn't come on for the air conditioner until 8:00 a.m. He has
lost the personal contact he had through local business. As a local businessman he thinks he has enough
experience to know what he is talking about and for every dollar in taxes that a homeowner pays in
Albemarle County, it costs the County $1.30 for infrastructure. For every dollar in taxes that a business
pays in the locality, it costs 70 cents in infrastructure, so the County makes 30 cents on the business.
People are indicating that houses need to be built in an area, but it is going to ultimately cost more money
for infrastructure to support housing than it will cost for businesses. He pointed out that people indicate a
certain size business is needed, and they know more about it than the businessman, so they are going to
tell him how to run his business. He mentioned that rental retail space brings $26.00 a square foot, office
space brings $12.00 a square foot and second floor residential space brings $3.00 a square foot. He had
just tried to build a building that City officials told him he needed to put on his property, but the lenders
wouldn't loan him the money because there wasn't any return on the investment. He remarked that at this
point, he sold his business and he now works for one of the business chains.
He could talk all night about growth and what it does to a community. His wife is from a small
town, and she can report as far as what lack of growth will do. Half of the town where she lived is empty,
and people drive 30 to 40 miles to buy their groceries and clothes because there is no industry there. The
people in the Charlottesville/Albemarle County area are fortunate to live in not only a beautiful place, but a
successful place. People come here for three reasons. He said aesthetics is one of them, but the
wonderful medical center is probably the greatest reason. He stated that another reason relates to the
people because the people in Albemarle County and the City of Charlottesville are wonderful neighbors
who help each other and look out for each other. The people in his district are poor, and most of them are
working class people. His phone rang a lot last night from people asking him to speak up for them
because they had to work and could not come to the meeting. They want the store. He is unsure if it is
going to be a Wal-Mart, or if it is going to be a Target Store. He knows, though, what is required by the
large retailer, and the retailer is going to have the space he needs or he is not going to come.
Mr. Marshall emphasized that he wants this large retailer for his people, and they elected him to
see that it gets here. He has one vote, and the remainder of the Board members have a right to vote any
way they want to, as they always do. However, he asked for support from the other Supervisors for the
people in southern Albemarle County because they need this store.
Mr. Martin pointed out that it was decided in the Board's last work session that no action would be
taken tonight. Mr. Marshall responded that he is not asking for a motion or a vote. He is asking the other
Board members to think about what he said, and when it comes time to vote, he hopes they will support
him.
Mr. Martin asked the consensus of the Board as to whether or not another work session is
necessary. Ms. Humphris stated that she thinks another work session is needed. The Supervisors have
heard a lot at tonight's meeting, and they discussed a lot of things but did not reach a conclusion at their
work session last week.
Mr. Martin inquired about suggestions for a time for another work session. Mr. Tucker noted that
all of the Board members won't be together again until the September 1,1999 meeting, which is the day
meeting. Ms. Humphris suggested that another work session be held at the September 1, 1999 day
meeting and then have the proposal as an agenda item at a regular night meeting.
Mr. Martin clarified that Ms. Humphris has proposed that a work session be held on September 1,
1999, and then a vote will be taken at the following night meeting on September 8, 1999. Mr. Marshall
commented that he wants to be present for the vote. Mr. Martin remarked that he does not believe a vote
will be taken on this issue without Mr. Marshall being present. Mr. Marshall explained that he has plans to
leave on September 2, 1999, and he would like to be gone 10 days to two weeks. Mr. Tucker suggested
that an announcement be made at the September 1, 1999 meeting as to when the vote will be taken on
this matter. Mr. Marshall said he should know by that time when he will return.
Mr. Martin then thanked all of the people who spoke tonight, and indicated that he was glad the
public hearing could be conducted without a lot of back and forth bickering. He said it was very nice to
July 14, 1999 (Regular Night Meeting) 0003~
(Page 17)
see that the citizens of Albemarle County and the City of Charlottesville can conduct themselves in such a
manner, and he noted that there was a lot of good input. He announced that a work session will be held
on the issue on September 1,1999, and he explained that the work session is being postponed for this
length of time because various Board members are going to be out between now and then, and that will
be the first time the whole Board will be together. He said on issues such as this, the Board waits to take
a vote until everyone can be present. He emphasized that any action to be taken on this subject will be
after the first of September.
Mr. Bowerman commented that it is difficult to deal with issues such as this one. He does not
think anybody has been demonized, and he does not think anybody is a saint, in these matters. He was
particularly struck tonight by everybody's attempt to maintain a certain quality of life, share the benefits of
growth and development that they bring to us, but not let them get so distorted that they detract from the
quality of life which brought people here in the beginning. He noted that the members of this Board have
committed to purchase $1,000,000 worth of development rights in the rural area because they believe in
protection of the scenic areas and the very things that bring people here. Yet, he recognizes that people
want to be able to purchase things economically, and they want some of the benefits, but they don't want
the negatives. Making that come about is a difficult task. He thinks this issue is not about the CPA before
this Board. He said market forces drive what people do, as well as the ultimate use of land, to a great
extent but not absolutely. There is a significant amount of commercial and light industrial land remaining
in the urban area. He thinks everyone is committed to the community and to having services available
reasonably close to them, and money is going to be spent to buy land and take it out of development for
residential use. Perhaps it costs $1.30 today for infrastructure for residents, and businesses cost only 70
cents in infrastructure, but part of this is based on the fact that a lot of the residential growth is happening
in such a way that it is not readily available to the services. This CPA is going to define the course of
action that this community follows beyond this site. He is approaching the issue in this manner, because
there was a lot of contradiction in what he heard tonight, as well as his own emotional feelings about
property rights, business and sustainability. He does not have the answers, either, but he thinks this
involves a major, significant decision that will affect this community forever.
(At 8:58 p.m., the Board took a recess. The Board reconvened at 9:05 p.m.)
Agenda Item No. 10. Approval of Minutes: March 10 (A), 1997; July 1, 1998 and April 21, 1999.
None were read.
Agenda Item No. 11. Other Matters not Listed on the Agenda from the BOARD.
Mr. Bowerman asked when Rio Road will reopen. Mr. Tucker answered that the latest report he
heard was that it will reopen on July 21 or 22, 1999.
Ms. Humphris mentioned that when Mr. Bowerman showed the Board the Freedom of Information
Act booklet last week, that the Virginia Municipal League had sent, she realized she had never seen it.
She thought it would come in the mail in a couple of days. However, the package was sent first class from
Richmond on July 1, and it arrived at her house on July 13. She said, though, she got a letter today from
Richmond that was sent yesterday. She noted that something needs to be done about the postal system.
Mr. Bowerman commented that he hand delivers things now in the City. Mr. Martin remarked that he has
a friend who works for the Charlottesville post office, and he says everything is in total disarray. Mr.
Bowerman wondered if it was part of the plan to improve postal service with the sorting facility on Airport
Road. Mr. Martin indicated that it has not happened.
Mr. Benish noted that this Board has not given the staff any direction on information they may
want relating to CPA-97-05. He asked the Supervisors to let the staff know by telephone what kind of
information they might be interested in for that work session.
Ms. Humphris stated that she had asked Susan Thomas about the possibility of a rendering to
show the reduced scale of the applicant's proposal. She likes the matrix the staff provided, and if there
could be any refinement of that, she would find it extremely helpful.
Mr. Bowerman said he would try to bring some specificity to the comments he made tonight for
the staff.
Mr. Benish indicated that the staff is ready and waiting for direction. Anything staff members are
told in advance, they will try to have ready for the meeting on September 1,1999.
Ms. Thomas mentioned a comment she had heard in a telephone conversation with Mr. Jim
Jacoby, who has designed some Wal-Mart buildings, that Wal-Mart is a leader of reuse of its buildings and
is beginning to build buildings with separate structures for different departments. She had also seen the
figure of over 300 empty buildings that used to be Wal-Mart Stores and are owned by Wal-Mart. She
remarked that Wal-Mart officials will have to figure out how to build these structures in such a way that
they can be reused when Wal-Marts are no longer occupying them or their real estate will become a big
problem. She asked if there is any way for staff to follow up on this information, even though it is uncertain
July 14, 1999 (Re0u{ar Ni0ht Meet}nO)
(Page 18)
if the structure }n question wi{{ be a Wal-Mart. }t would be interest}no to know if, }n fact, Wal-Mart }s
be0innin0 to build its bui{dinos in a different way so they can eas{{y be reused.
Mr. Perkins wondered }f Mr. Jacoby cou{d provide photographs of bui{d{n§s he has des}§ned. Mr.
Perkins also asked for an explanation of smart growth.
Mr. Bowerman responded that an attorney spoke to the last D{SC meet}no, but he couldn't speak
about the spec}tics, because they are proprietary at this point. However, the D{SC is addressing the very
same issues that the Supervisors are addressing now }n trying to have smart growth {n communities
which, up until this time, were out of contro{. They are in a pos{tion of look}n0 at these types of {ssues, as
we{{ as a land use p{an {nvol¥}nO communities, etc., and the growth seen }s very en{iohtenin0.
Ms. Humphr}s stated that Mr. Jacoby and h{s architect kept emphasiz}n0 the fact that they are
try}no to use the very sma{lest footprint possible, and they do not think multiple stodes are out of the
quest}on at ail She added that Mr. 3acoby said Wal-Mart off}c{ais are now look}n0 at the modular type of
construction and are ahead of the curve in doing these things because they know that these types of
th}nos need to be done. There }s no clue as to whether th{s project will or wi{{ not be a Wal-Mart, but it
would help }f the Supervisors knew from Wal-Mart representatives what they would be willing to offer in the
way of a sustainable structure. The obvious th}nOs Mr. Jacoby mentioned that could be done relate to
{nsulation and solar panels, etc., although this type of detail has not been discussed on this issue. Mr.
Jacoby also indicated that }f the building is smaller than 160,000 square feet, it might well be a Target
Store instead of a Wal-Mart.
Mr. Perkins mentioned that he talked to Al Reaser, Director of Building Services, about the
possibility of building two story elementary schools. Mr. Perkins suggested that schools' footprints should
be considered also, because they are taking up a lot of land. Perhaps a two story elementary school
could be built to accommodate an extra soccer field. He also recalled talking to several of the Board
members about visiting the MacArthur Center in Norfolk, which involves three stories. He explained that
the top story is a recreation center where there are bumper cars, etc., as well as restaurants. There are
two anchor stores that are two stories high, and parking is in close proximity.
Mr. Marshall remarked that parking could be included on the different levels so people could drive
to the separate stories of the building.
Mr. Bowerman wondered if escalators or elevators are used in the MacArthur Center. Mr. Perkins
answered that escalators are available, and he is sure elevators are also included. Mr. Bowerman asked
if there is any way to move shopping carts from one floor to another. Mr. Perkins answered affirmatively.
Ms. Thomas said her notes indicate that Mr. Jacoby has designed two story buildings at other
times, but he thought it would be better to consider putting the big box store on one level. However, there
is 90,000 square feet of associated retail that would definitely lend itself to being two stories and could be
a component of mixed use. She said nowhere was Mr. Jacoby thinking about having people above the
big box. She added that residential use for this site is not considered as being on top of the retail
business. She remarked that there is a beautiful location for residential property on this site, and
everything could fit. However, the use }s not so mixed, that a big box store is being mixed with bedrooms.
Mr. Marshall referred to his earlier comments about the economics of such situations. There has
to be leverage when people are dealing with lenders, and square footage has to be considered. He said
first floors rent for approximately $26.00 a square foot, but the second floor cost drops to $12.00. Ms.
Thomas pointed out that M. J. Designs is renting its whole building for the price Mr. Marshall quoted for
the first floor. Mr. Marshall commented that he is talking about office space. In his situation he was
going to put up a big building so he was the developer. However, he was also the retailer. The first floor
was worth $26.00 a square foot. He explained that he brought in experts from Norfolk, Virginia to testify
before City Council to this very fact. The second floor could not be considered for commercial retail
unless it was something like the MacArthur Center.
Mr. Bowerman stated that a developer could have retail office space on the middle floor of a
building. Mr. Marshall asked the cost of this space. Mr. Bowerman said it would be $158 a square foot to
construct the space on a third floor. Mr. Marshall wondered what the rent would be. Mr. Bowerman
replied that commercial office use will rent for $13 to $18 a square foot. He emphasized that he is not
referring to retail space, since a retail business on the first floor would be more costly.
Mr. Marshall reported that doctors' offices in his area are renting for $12 a square foot, and the
building across from the Omni is renting for $16 a square foot. He has not seen any area renting for $18 a
square foot.
Mr. Martin commented that Mr. Benish has asked if Board members have any questions about
information he can pass on to them at their next work session.
Ms. Humphris mentioned the possibility of reducing the parking ratio. She said information on that
issue would be very helpful. She also recalled that none of the speakers referred to the absolute beauty
of this particular site and how important it is that special consideration be given to the hillside and the
gorgeous 100-year old oak trees and rock outcroppings. She suggested that if any Board members have
July 14, 1999 (Regular Night Meeting) O003GG
(Page 19)
not seen the site, they should do so, because they will get a whole different sense of the area. Mr.
Marshall pointed out that with the zoning the applicant has now, he could do worse than this project.
Mr. Martin said Board members will pass on their questions to Mr. Benish. He also informed the
other Supervisors that he attended the meeting about the Work Force Investment Act, and he will make
sure interested Board members get a copy of this information.
Agenda Item No. 12. Adjourn. At 9:21 p.m., there being no further business to come before the
Board, the meeting was immediately adjourned.
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